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On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 18:14, alan wrote:
On 2004.09.27 14:03 "Brough, Tom" wrote:Firstly, my appologies for not attending Exeter Meeting, I wanted to come, but I ended up on call because of a massive rewiring (Power and Internet), as it was I didnt get called up but hey I couldnt risk it.I had to work too, and I was only in Sowton.It seems that the meeting stimulated the debate so here are my observerations 1. Linux tends to invoke a Geek / Religious stereotype but stereotypes are just that.I disagree. Most of the people I know and talk to about computing , know diddley squat about any OS, so to isolate Linux as geeky is mistaken (IMHO).
I think that was supposed to be my point, perhaps I should of said invokes and image of Geek / Religious sterotype ... That is to say its membership is (should be) made up of both geeks and non-geeks. Apologies for typing faster than I think !!!!
2. There are good arguments for the ultimate thin client (ie web browser based services) but then everything is based on hosting, and network infrastructure. If you think this is going to help the digital divide you would be sadly mistaken.<snip> You seem to have assumed that web based services are using the internet. There is no reason not to use "web" based systems in an office or factory environment. In fact, using apache + <your favourite db here> in such an environment has positive benefits. (again IMHO). </snip>
Equally you assume that more there will be more than a handful of suppliers, however given the Euro patent position currently hangs in the balance, the fact that M****soft are filing for enough patents to fill up the channel tunnel, investing in new browser technologies and probing ISP's etc. I would hazard a guess that they would love to make it illegal for anyone other than themselves to be able to develop code, and the rest of us will have to live with dumb terminals (in comparison) hooked to M****soft controlled servers. OK conspiracy theory it may be but then IBM only expected to sell a couple of thousand IBM-PC's with this obscure OS call MS-DOS .... And Rank Xerox's marketing department didnt think the WIMPS would have an impact on the computing markets .... Bill Gates / Steve Jobs & Co didnt do too badly out of that miss calculation ?
3. Classed (fairly or unfairly) as a Geek group, we are not going to attract the singularly most important group people to switch to linux .... TNG ... swearing on this list will not aid this one bit, and maybe you can hear it in the primary playground where your kids go to but its highly discouraged where my son goes to school. Just because something is fact doesnt make it right.a) are there any children subscribed to this list ? b) To get the next generation using linux, give them linux machines to use. This last weekend I set up a SUSE 9.1 box for my sisters kids. Mainly so I wouldn't have to keep disinfecting it, but also so that they will not grow up thinking "Windows" is computing. I realise linux geeks aren't supposed to have girlfriends/wives/partners/WHY , but the truth is they do, and so they are just as likely to have children. Just another variation on "Charity begins at home".
Again my point is that there should be kids on this forum, for all I know 90% of the lurkers on this mail group could be kids, so does swearing set a good example ? ... I would bet that given a room load of kids even the "mighty Bill" himself would refrain from expletives, as this mail group is public and potentially the archives could out live us all, I would hope that we would be more thoughtful of the language that we use. Good to hear that you are thinking of children, My son (Aged 5 now) is in class 1 and I would guess that he is the only one in his year that uses open source software at home, and the only one who understands the practicals if not the concepts of logging in (OK very simple password but hes only 5).
4. Linux is a community project (THE (biggest) community project). People from all races, religous backgrounds and financial statuses have contributed. And yet in Torbay there is not one single community education program that is offering a basic introduction to what GNU/Linux is.I don't think there are any community programs teaching windows as such. Just how to use certain software on a computer that happens to be running windows. Office, web browsers, email and the like. In order to change that, we have to be political and aim our pitch at the local officials. Plenty of ammo really, no viruses, free software, volunteer IT staff ....
Ah yes, but the point of linux is that is always worked from the roots upwards, small server doing this over here and another doing that over there and hey I don't need to do half the maintenance I would need to do if I went elsewhere, and suddenly its running > 50% of my business, at which point the Manager would find it difficult to make a case for turning it all off and going back to the "old days". My view is that local officials tend to listen more to the pulse of the electorate than visa versa. People tend to vote for something that they see (or think that they will see) working. Demo Linux and give them a free bootable CD and they might just see the point IT literate or not. We have these great resources and treasure in the form of GPL / GNU / Linux / Hurd / FreeBSD ...... and yet rather than actively share them we wait for people to stumble across them, only then do we invite them to the party !!!!
I dont want to start a Distro war, I personally prefer RH/Fedora, but I wouldnt stop anyone who wants to try SUSE, Mandrake, or Debian from doing so, and a debian "Masterclass" sounds good, but it has to be balanced with the needs of newbies (and even the word newbie prickles with me). If we are going to use a community built project to run our computers then shouldnt we be involving the wider community in its use ?The wider "computer using" community. The majority of people don't have need for computers. It is as well to remember that. I have tried to enthuse people with the advantages of linux, but unless they already use a computer, its mostly a waste of time. In the end, I think it's better to let people come to us, because then they want to learn and use linux.
I find that strange to believe for a country that throws away > 1 million computers a year and yet has no end of retail outlets pushing more and more computers. Perhaps what you mean is that people don't like to admit they need a computer, or are unwilling to enter the maze of computer ownership because they get treated like idiots when they don't know the basics. At least you have presented them with a choice, they can no longer say "we bought M****soft because its the only thing we knew about". I can even stand people who deliberately buy M****soft ( I have to Im related to some of them). But what I cant stand is this attitude of sit back and let them come to us. Yes ok Neil is right, to do this cost money, time and effort and is painful and sometimes un-rewarding but at least we can say that we tried. It seems that this group is made up of some very skilled programmers and technicians (which is a good thing BTW), why is it so hard to find advocates, promoters and ordinary "salt of the earth" users ?
We dont advertise our meetings ouside our web site, so the message only gets to those that know about us already which is logically errr ... US, not much room for growth there then. I think this groups efforts should be concentrating in these areas. If someone is frightend of joining this group simply because they feel intimidated by the "geekyness" of its members (and I can be labled in the "geek" category too) then we have failed to get our message over.I think the previous 2 statements are self cancelling. If they already know about us, then they are probably using linux, and ergo are geeks themselves ;-)
So what you are saying is that if somebody installs linux for the first time on day one, and happens to stumble across this group and register with it the next, that they are automatically elevated to the rank of geek .... putting myself in their shoes I think I would run a mile ! Example: Ive used computers for 20+ years, from BBC Micro, to AIX SP Nodes, and each day I become a "newbie" over some aspect or other of the industry. Im self taught and to a certain extent self motivated, I rarely go with the flow (Hey I am a GNU/Linux user), but then I want the best I can get out of my computing experience and not necessarily what the industry tells me I should have / use. BUT i don't want the next guy I meet having to go through the same roller coaster ride in order to get the best he needs. Duplicating research unnecessarily is a crime against humanity.
Every member is important from first page in the manual to 20,30,40 years IT experiance, and potential members are even more important. I have been in IT long enough now to recognise that you cant know everything, and it takes time to learn what you do know, so why should I treat anyone differently ?True, but a) they have to be a member, and b) they have to want to learn. I quickly lose patience with people who ask me for help, then repeat the same request some time later, just because I become "the quick fix" for any problems.
It can be annoying I agree, but then to paraphrase the bible "Not 7 but 77 times you must forgive your brother if he falters ".
5. I think (like some other members it seems) that there is an under-estimation of what the general public could do with GNU/Linux. Isn't it about time that we gave joe public the opportunity to genuinely try GNU/Linux. This is not going to happen unless we change our habits.Why change our habits ? We have good habits (in the main). Part of what attracted me to *nix in the first place was the sharing of information, done in a truthfull and relevant way. Personally, I don't want to convert all windows users over to linux. It's not a religious mission for me. In fact, if Linux became the predominant "desktop" OS, I would quickly move on. Ever worked in an IT support roll / call centre ? Its kind of sad, the downright stupidity that rears up all the time. It would only get worse if linux was a mainstream consumer OS.
Yes but we signed up for being asked (seemingly) stupid questions when we became computer "professionals". Its part of the job spec. But you cant really say I want to share information in one sentence and say I dont want to help someone with a stupid question in the next can you ? Its this sort of cherry picking that gives FLOSS a bad name. Newbie1 to Newbie2: Yer this is a great sight to go to geekA knows everything about build high end computing clusters .... Newbie2 to Newbie1: Yer but he couldnt be bothered to help me get my mouse working properly. perhaps one way to change would be to say "heres a list of 101 thinks you can check if X goes wrong, rather than pounding the keyboard say "here its fixed" and leaving them non the wiser as to how you did it ... thus making them reliant on coming back to you when the same problem occurs again. For me GNU/Linux has always had a mission statement GNU especially with RMS leading the missionaries. So are you saying that is OK to be a missionary but we shouldn't as missionaries go out and pro-actively seek new membership ? That just downright absurd.
So that said, What is our future mission statement to be ? Where is our plan of action for future expansion and inclusion into the group ? How are we going to engage the wider public ? Are we prepared to co-ordinate our efforts and bring GNU/Linux into the public domain ? How do we intent to encourage the next generation ? This message is intended as a tought provoker, and possibly an instrument of change in policy, however I can guarentee it will not be to all members liking. Appologies to any member who feels that this is a personal attack, please be assured that this is not the intention. Tom.Why does there have to be a mission ? Linux has got to this stage by being developed and used by geeks. As far as I'm concerned, there is no "next stage". It really shouldn't be political, or the thing we love/enjoy will be destroyed. I don't advocate protectionism, where we deny people access to our knowledge, just that they come when they are ready. Of course, a few more high profile Linux success stories wouldn't hurt, but thats about it really. ( And you Tom, are in the best place to advocate the use of Linux )
Yes ok GNU/Linux is designed, written, modified, discussed, re-evaluated, improved, enhanced, operated and distributed by a group of highly motivated individuals who may (or may not ) like to be referred to as geeks. However I think they did this not only to give other geeks access, but more probably to make the computing experience better for non-geeks as well. If we dont advocate protectionism, but we do behave in such a way that does not encourage new membership in a pro-active way, and are impatient with those that ask the same question more than once, then we might as well be protectionists for all the good we are doing ! If we dont support new users in the way and spirit that the software is developed (that is to say freely) then its time to pack our bags and look else were.
Just my opinion though. No harm, no foul.
Ditto And as a final shot across the bows on software freedom day this group had a BBQ in Cornwall (this isn't a bad thing BTW ... Good to socialise and everything). I spent the day packing as many recycled computers into boxes as I could possibly afford to, ready to send to schools in the Philippines. Now ask yourself which is going to bring more users (and possibly code contributors) to the GNU/Linux fold ? In real terms what would it have cost us to get a few T-Shirts made up, burnt off or got mass produced a large number of Knoppix discs with contact details on them, and then gone out into the streets and just handed them to people. Curiosity and the law of averages should suggest that we would have got a certain % on new comers and if not at least raised the profile of GNU/Linux. This could have been arranged through UKLUG with some central funding / distribution and co-ordinated effort focused around software freedom day. I think sadly this is another missed opportunity, but then as usual this is just MHO.
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