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As a slightly more measured response: Have you ever heard of an MBA who has studied Agile Development? I've tried to use it, or simialr methods, where possible as it seems to me a more heuristic/holisic approach. Its probably the logical conclusion of good Quality management - something espoused but rarely implemented. I was wondering if any of you have come across it at in a non software area as it smells sweet to me. But it seems to panik 'managers' as it encapsulates power and responsibility in the same place. Tom te tom te tom -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html