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On Thu, 2005-01-20 at 22:35, Simon Waters wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Tom Brough wrote: | | Then you need utilities (Ahh GNU) You seem to have omitted things like libc, shells and binutils, which I regard as somewhat closer to what I perceive as an operating system than file utilities. Last I looked the libc project itself was huge, but no one talks about it much.
True I did miss out shells bin utils and glibc (glaring omissions ) ;-). And I have never disputed the fact that GNU is a BIG part of my operating system / applications.
| If I use Apache or MySQL or OpenOffice I don't hear anyone from the | Apache team or the MySQL team or the OpenOffice team suggesting that I | should call my operating system Apache/Linux or MySQL/Linux or | OpenOffice/Linux. These are all applications and run on more than one operating systems.
Umm Yes But Doesn't GNU run on other operating systems too, If so and we wish to use GNU/Linux instead of just Linux then surely these other applications have equal rights to be appended in a similar way, which was my original point.
Whilst the GNU project set out to create a free software operating system, and free software applications to run on it, the key contributions are probably in the tools to build and link software, and the implementation of the libraries to support the core standards for the many languages and tools they provide.
Tools to build tools very important indeed, but equally without the "big guns" like Apache, OpenOffice, MySQL, Postgress and of course the linux kernel then surely GNU would still be a curiosity used by a smaller subset of UNIX gurus rather than something associated with an operating system kernel thats used world wide by an increasing army of people. In other words one (GNU) can't grow (as quickly) without the other (linux). And yes I know we have Darwin and various BSD's that use GNU as well. I would like to think of GNU as the message "Freedom and Choice" and linux as the medium (megaphone if you like) by which its delivered, there isn't much point to a megaphone without a message to deliver and there nothing more sad than a good message with no way to deliver it.
i.e. the reason Apache and OpenOffice run on GNU/Linux at all, is that GNU/Linux implements well enough the standards, such as POSIX, that porting these applications to GNU/Linux was not too onerous. I'm not sure on the history of MySQL it may have started on GNU/Linux and migrated elsewhere.
Agreed GNU provides (much) to these applications and I'm sure the developers of these great applications will acknowledge this (they would be foolish not to). But without the applications the libraries and tools have no function or purpose beyond academic curiosity. Its all part of the symbiotic relationship between GNU linux and the applications. So while it is probably wrong to call it just "linux" I think its equally wrong to call it GNU/linux without recognising the applications that make it all worth while. For example five or so years ago when I first got into linux GNOME and KDE where former shadows of themselves and the nearest thing to an integrated office suite was Koffice. Then came staroffice / openoffice and <boom/> overnight gnu/linux had an integrated office suite at that point everybody started talking about the viability of linux as a "desktop operating system". Yes it needs a kernel (linux is good there are others) yes it needs gnu to compile it, but hey now we have openoffice more people than ever are aware of GNU / Linux / GPL.
| 4. I will not be offended by anyone who refers to this group as DCLUG, | DCGLUG or any other derivative they feel comfortable with. Me neither, for as long as the names are decent, legal and honest ;)
Of course (must be decent, legal and honest)
I prefer the term GNU/Linux.
Me too but I'm not going to get fanatical if someone drops the GNU.
If Neil comes across as enthusiastic for GNU, consider his perspective, he is working on a GNU project (gnucash), for a GNU environment (GNOME), written in C, preprocessed and compiled by GNU C compiler suite, configured for each platform it runs on (Macos X, BSD, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, any others?, oh and GNU/Linux) by GNU autoconf tools, and an OS called "Debian GNU/Linux". He includes largely GNU include files, in his source, and links against an extensive range of libraries many (most?) of which are part of the GNU project. The restraints of writing portable code preclude him from being directly involved in much "Linux" specific code (for this project) unless it is part of the macro suite (usually written in m4 handled by the GNU m4 processor). Oh and the bits he has trouble with are Linux hardware support, and XFree86 configuration. Just kidding.
I don't think Neil's enthusiasm has every been the cause of grief to me :-) And Im sure that from any "hard core" developers point of view GNU is much more important than the kernel (unless of course you happen to be a hard core developer working on kernels, but even then the kernel developer is using (probably) using GNU to edit, compile, debug the code.
For a similar perspective, write a "hello world" program (or use the GNU projects "hello world" if you believe in code reuse), and try and figure out which bits of the process of compiling and running it aren't part of the GNU project.
I take your point .... So if even qualified people have problems
distinguishing the interfaces between application code / gnu code /
kernel code, this is all the more reason not to attack anyone who just
calls it linux out of ignorance ?
[tom@xxxxxxxxx cprogs]$ strace ./hello
execve("./hello", ["./hello"], [/* 34 vars */]) = 0
uname({sys="Linux", node="training1", ...}) = 0
brk(0) = 0x83de000
open("/etc/ld.so.preload", O_RDONLY) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or
directory)
open("/etc/ld.so.cache", O_RDONLY) = 3
fstat64(3, {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=69888, ...}) = 0
old_mmap(NULL, 69888, PROT_READ, MAP_PRIVATE, 3, 0) = 0xbf543000
close(3) = 0
open("/lib/tls/libc.so.6", O_RDONLY) = 3
read(3, "\177ELF\1\1\1\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\3\0\3\0\1\0\0\0`8\216\000"...,
512) = 5 12
fstat64(3, {st_mode=S_IFREG|0755, st_size=1578228, ...}) = 0
old_mmap(NULL, 4096, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS,
-1, 0) = 0 xbf542000
old_mmap(0x8ce000, 1281996, PROT_READ|PROT_EXEC, MAP_PRIVATE, 3, 0) =
0x8ce000
old_mmap(0xa01000, 16384, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_FIXED,
3, 0x1320 00) = 0xa01000
old_mmap(0xa05000, 8140, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE,
MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_FIXED|MAP_ANONYMO US, -1, 0) = 0xa05000
close(3) = 0
set_thread_area({entry_number:-1 -> 6, base_addr:0xbf542740,
limit:1048575, seg_ 32bit:1, contents:0, read_exec_only:0,
limit_in_pages:1, seg_not_present:0, usea ble:1}) = 0
munmap(0xbf543000, 69888) = 0
fstat64(1, {st_mode=S_IFCHR|0620, st_rdev=makedev(136, 1), ...}) = 0
mmap2(NULL, 4096, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS, -1,
0) = 0xbf 554000
write(1, "hello world\n", 12hello world
) = 12
munmap(0xbf554000, 4096) = 0
exit_group(12) = ?
[tom@xxxxxxxxx cprogs]$
Yep ... Point taken.
Sure application development is fairly distinct from system development, but many similar comments apply to system development......
Indeed to the uninitiated the GNU "free software" story of "sharing", and the way the development process works, is far more approachable than many aspects of comparing the technical advantages of one piece of software over another, or even "what as Operating system is".
But this is the point we should be making, not that fact that its GNU or Linux or Debian, or RedHat, or ..... but that its all about freedom and sharing. The benefits of which are all negated when someone comes up to someone who really doesn't know better and says (in sarcastic "you idiot" tone of voice) "you should call it GNU/Linux not Linux". At this point you loose the new user, the message, GNU, linux the lot .... To miss quote Douglas Adams: 2000 years after someone was nailed to a tree for suggesting we should be nice to one another .... were still not being nice to one another
Oh dear I'm rambling again...
From a fellow Rambler
Tom. Progress is when: 2000 years after someone was nailed to a tree for suggesting we should be nice to one another .... were still not being (that) nice to one another ! -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG Mail majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxx with "unsubscribe list" in the message body to unsubscribe.