Re: [LUG] today's meets and some observations etc.

[Mark Evans <mpe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

DaveNull wrote:

> Neil was apparently under the impression that the things discussed on 
> saturday would be over the head of windows users, my experience 
> contradicts this, in my experience if you want to UTTERLY confuse a 
> windows user then recursive acronyms, BSD licencing versus GPL, pick any

Or just algorithms, a fair few Windows programmers would probably ask 
"What's an algorithm".

> distro from distrowatch vs pick any other distro, I could go on and on 
> and on.

They'd probably be just as confused by 
"HKLM->Software->Microsoft->Current Version".

> Linux in 2004, far more so than in the early days, and you only have to 
> go to sites like slashdot for absolute proof of this, has a significant 
> proportion of users / advocates / adverents / proponents that have 
> managed to turn it into a priesthood or religious cult, where before you

There are these kind of advocates for just about everything, including 
Microsoft Windows.

> even start you must sit down and study the meaningless language in order 
> to worship with the correct words and not cause a riot on the altar by 
> using the wrong word for the wrong situation, like it or not, for most 
> windows users joining the church of linux is about as appealing as being

It's probably closer to Baptist than Anglican or Roman Catholic. 
(Judaism and Islam also lack any kind of strict hierarchy. Given the use 
of the term "Guru" in computing maybe Sikhism.)

> audited by the scientologists, studying dianetics and accepting the 
> ultimate truth that el ron was right and aliens are in charge.
>
> I don't care how much you dislike this statement, because it isn't a 
> statement of opinion, but it is a statement of fact, and if you stop and 
> think for a minute instead of just reacting you will see that it is true.
>
> Windows has NONE of these sorts of issues, it is baby simple, you buy it 
> or you warez it, either way you ignore the EULA, you install it and it

Installing Windows is anything but simple, especially with hardware 
which postdates the Windows release. Most often it's supplied 
preinstalled on hardware, with the tricky bits worked out, at least in 
theory.

> looks feels and works the same across pretty much any x86 hardware, and 
> any application software you want to install you have the same choice, 
> buy it or warez it.
>
> For people like the crediton guys this makes life dead simple, in a 
> business enviornment they cannot be using warezed software, so, buy copy

Unless their clients can find a loophole in the licencing conditions, 
which being lawyers they might be able to do :)

> of windows server, buy copy of sql server with x clients, buy copy of 
> visual studio 8, jobs a good un.
> Note this whole process takes about 3 minutes online, very very very 
> simple questions / decisions, simple pricing, simple to cost it out and 

It may only take 3 minutes to buy the licences from a supplier with 
simple pricing. Assuming you actually know who that supplier is.

But it will take rather longer than that to install and deploy any kind 
of useful system.

> factor that into their prices to their clients to buffer the profit margin.
>
> Contrast this with Linux, where COMMERCIAL companies actual feel that 
> there is COMMERCIAL need and demand to include LEGAL INDEMNITY COVER

There would be far more reason to provide such insurance with anything 
Microsoft, given that they have been found guilty of pirating other 
people's code more than once.

> when selling something to other COMMERCIAL companies, so that Darl 
> McBride cannot sue their asses off at some future date for using SCO 
> owned code and this screwing up the profit and loss accounts for each 
> job / client.

Something which SCO appears to be spinning out as long as possible and 
activly opposing actually presenting their case. In other words "All 
talk and no trousers".

> Case in point, is there or is there not a commerical licence for MySQL?
> Clearly there is, https://order.mysql.com/?sub=vt&id=software

Which gives you 3 different purchasing options.

> as I said correctly, without having signed a non disclosure and had 
> sight of the crediton guys project, it is PURE speculation to say 
> whether or not they should or should not pay the licence fee. My

Proprietary software licencing is very complex, so complex that most 
people ignore it. Rather than admit that they are dealing with something 
which can easily destroy their business in a second.

Companies will pay what amounts to protection money to the likes of the 
BSA because the disruption of a "audit" (which could easily prove they 
have an excess of licences) will hurt them more.

> comments were made in the windows language, windows users like that, 
> they can deal with it in 10 seconds, these guys can sit down with their 
> project manager and when asked the question say
> "Worst case scenario financially is a 500 Euro per server licence, which 
> is unlimited connections, which makes it cheaper than MS SQL server. 
> Best case scenario is it is free"
>
> That last word will generate a discussion amongst the linux nerds about 
> "ah yes, but free as is speech or free as in beer" and bang, you just 
> lost another convert, I have seen this happen _________so_________ often 
> you wouldn't believe it.

It's hardly Linux's fault that the word "free" is ambiguious. With the 
"free as in speach..." phrase probably coming from some patriotic American.

Maybe "free of EULA lawyer-speak" would be a better version.

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