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Re: [LUG] today's meets and some observations etc.
john wrote:
That was the design of the meeting - you cannot blame the
members for doing what they intended from the start. I'm sorry if you
thought it would be a different kind of meeting, book a venue and prepare a
topic - we'll gladly troop along and do a real Welcome mat show, it's been
done before.
I was not attempting to blame anyone for anything, I was attempting to make a
point, moreover a point that I think would be relevant to a Linux User
Group's members enthusiasms and ambitions for their OS of choice.
Hi All,
As you all (probably) know I live in Wales, so obviously was not at the
meeting. However if you don't mind I'd like to make a few observations
on this little spat.
Neil is correct that for a long time this meeting has been billed as a
Masterclass (regardless of the interpreted definition of the term).
Whatever an individual thinks a Masterclass consists of, the term does
not lend itself to the image of novice users finding much of interest to
them, hence the distinction between Master and Novice in trades :) This
to me makes it abundantly clear it was never going to be a "Newbies
Intro to Linux" meeting.
we differ, users always have choice.
That depends on the definition of "user". An experienced user has the
knowledge and expertise to choose from the available options, PC
(Windows or Linux) or Mac. A new user these days is in a totally
different world to when I was a new user. (To give you an idea my first
computer was a Spectrum 48K back in 1982). Back then if you bought a
computer it was expected (maybe even required - see RTFM for details ;))
that you knew what you were doing and what you wanted. Nowadays new
users end up in their local PC World/Dixons/Currys etc being extolled
the virtues of a PC by sales staff who can turn a computer on (I kid you
not... that was the very question asked of a friend in an interview for
Sales.... the conversation went:
Her: I don't know much about computers
Interviewer: Do you know how to switch one on?
Her: Yes
Interviewer: That's all you need for Sales.
Hmm).
The point I am making here is simple. Experienced users know what they
want and how to get it. New users rely on (generally) less than
competent advice from Sales staff. Another friend bought a network kit
at "a well known computer supplier with a name something like Personal
Computer Globe" (ish ;)). He turned to a Sales Assistant to ask about
the enclosed cable and was brushed off with "we don't support
networking". His response I won't quote as it would need editing of the
email for the archive ;))
So I respectfully disagree to an extent. New users do not get a
choice. They get whatever gets the Sales staff the highest commission.
That's a Windows based PC. I'm scared to ask a Sales assistant about
Linux. I've never seen a braincell implode and I don't really want to
break that habit ;) (Yes I know HP are marketing Linux PCs now.. who
wants to bet how long it will take PC World to start stocking them, with
their Microsoft contracts?).
If Linux wants to get at the newbie market from day one it *must* be in
the retail stores like PC World/Currys/Dixons etc. There is no point
them being able to buy a Linux PC only online because.. ummm.. by the
time they're online they've already got their PC? The other problem of
course is that most will be familiar with Windows from the workplace and
when they buy a home PC they will want the comfort zone of an OS they
are already familiar with using. It must come to a point where retail
outlets offer a choice of OS.
ah yes, the "anything that does not conform to my opinion must by definition
be a troll" response.
indescribably sad.
Well no, not as such. A troll is someone who makes deliberately
inflammatory comments in the hope of goading those reading into
responding, hence the well known phrase "Don't feed the troll". John,
you started off with "I want to say something here..." which is akin to
my habit in work of occasionally using the phrase "with all due respect"
which my colleagues have noted (usually with a wince) generally means I
am about to tell the customer (in the nicest possible way of course)
that he is a berk, and he's wrong as well. Your variation on it had the
immediate effect on me as a reader of thinking "utoh, that sounds like
he's going to go off on one". After using a phrase like that it is
unavoidable that a) people will read your comments with the jaundiced
eye of someone expecting to be offended and b) at least one person is
going to be upset/offended by the comments. John, please do not think I
am accusing you of being a troll, I am simply pointing out how what you
think of as innocuous commentary could easily be misinterpreted (and
indeed appears to have been).
Caveats such as "this is not a personal attack on anyone" never work.
They tend to get lost, especially in a long email such as the original
one; Unless restated at relevant points throughout the mail, by the time
the person has read to the point that offends them they have forgotten
the opening phrase completely and move straight into "offended" mode.
I hope nobody is offended
Clearly, many would be offended by your offensive language - otherwise you
wouldn't have used the words you used.
oh come on for ***** sake, you hear worse at 7pm on the telly or in a primary
school playground, I didn't use any words I did not hear other atendees utter
today, admittedly I swear probably far too much, but I do that day in and
day out and it is utterly pathetic to suppose it was done for no purpose
other than to offend.
You admit to "probably" swearing far too much (as I think many people do
in our daily lives). The old saying is, imho, true:
The one language common to all programmers is profanity.
Indeed this is likely true of all IT professionals and possibly *anyone*
in a technical trade.
That does not make it right. I have a habit of turning the air blue on
many occasions when my <insert random punctuation and control symbols
here> computer decides it does not want to play nicely today. However,
I am quite aware that posting a request for help anywhere with the
phrase "this <expletive> computer has <expletived> up" is
counterproductive and unlikely to get help. The best way to get any
point across concisely and above all *effectively* is to write it out
once. Save it as a Draft. Reread it and remove the inevitable
cursing. Reread it and remove the repetitions. Reread it and remove
the repetitions *grin*. Then see if it says what you want it to. Then
send it. Swearing doesn't help you get the point over and it sometimes
alienates those who would otherwise have contributed to the discussion
and/or helped.
do you have a mandate to speak for everyone else?
Possibly not, but he has a valid stance in that the original comments
were made in open court so to speak (type.. whatever ;)) and responses
ought to come in the same venue. It's the same situation as if someone
asks a question in an open forum, gets the answer emailed to them, and
then replies in the open forum "Thanks!" It generates a flood of "so
what was the answer???" emails. Similarly if an insult is made to a
person in public. That person has the right to expect any apology to be
made under the exact same circumstances as the original insult occurred.
Let me ask you a question, and it is a serious question.
Do you feel that the main purpose of the LUGs is to provide a meeting place
for deep geeks to hack? Or do you feel that the main purpose is to promote
the use of Linux?
You asked the question of Neil, but as a relative newbie to Linux I'd
rather like to see both angles covered, and from my year and a bit on
this LUG I have learned a heck of a lot. Maybe I didn't understand
everything being discussed at any point, but where it was something I
needed/wanted to know the guys and gals have all been unquestioningly
helpful. I also know that as my Linux knowledge grows, this will be
where I will be able to get the help and expertise I need when (and it
happens to everyone) I get stuck :)
Finally after sticking my nose where I am sure it was most unwelcome,
may I ask a question please?
Can we get back to Linux now? ;)
Kind regards,
Julian
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